MyProfe :: View topic

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:34 pm

The other day in a language school, while waiting for my student to arrive, I could hear perfectly how the teacher in the next room was explaining the grammar point in English and the teenage students were responding in Spanish. The teacher, at no time, reprimanded the students for speaking in Spanish.

This was obviously the way he normally conducted his classes. Shock

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:16 am

I am not shocked. I explain the grammar in French to my student; my collegues do exactly the same; the inspector see me doing that and thought it was very normal. In France this was done among 70's and it was abandonned because it produced bad results.

How do you want a begginner to understand what you mean if you speak to him a language he is learning ? This is what shock me; it is only possible with advanced students.

But first we use the new rule speaking the foreign language and the explanation of the rule is not always necesary. It is necesary if the rule is difficult for the students and in that case it is not necesary to add the difficulty to understand a foreign language to the difficulty to grasp the new rule.

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:43 pm

Flo wrote:

I explain the grammar in French to my student; my collegues do exactly the same; the inspector see me doing that and thought it was very normal. In France this was done among 70's and it was abandonned because it produced bad results.

How do you want a begginner to understand what you mean if you speak to him a language he is learning ? This is what shock me; it is only possible with advanced students.

But first we use the new rule speaking the foreign language and the explanation of the rule is not always necesary. It is necesary if the rule is difficult for the students and in that case it is not necesary to add the difficulty to understand a foreign language to the difficulty to grasp the new rule.

Corrections and suggestions: I explain the grammar in French to my student; my collegues do exactly the same; the inspector saw me doing that and thought it was very normal. In France this was done during the 70's and it was abandonned because it produced bad results.

How do you want a beginner to understand what you mean if you speak to him in a language he is learning ? This is what shocked me; it is only possible with advanced students.

But first we use the new rule speaking the foreign language and the explanation of the rule is not always necessary. It is necesary if the rule is difficult for the students and in that case it is not necesary to add the difficulty of understanding a foreign language to the difficulty of grasping the new rule.

Comment: How did you learn your first language? And how do you imagine English is taught to a multilingual group of students?

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:14 am

First of all thanks for correcting

How did you learn your first language?

I learnt it from 0 to 5 years old practising without nobody to explain me rules. But it was different when I began English because I had French manners. The English grammar for French student is different from the English grammar for Spanish student: it explains what is different from their mother tongue. It is not exactly the same. You can see my English faults come from my mother tongue: I was not virgen/new when I began. I suppose this would be my greatest difficulty if I had to teach to foreign students.

And how do you imagine English is taught to a multilingual group of students?

I never had the experience of teaching to a multilingual group of students; I suppose I would change my pedagogy acording to those students if I had to do it.

Pedagogy is also a question of fashion and since pedagogy exists there is nothing really new. In France they tell us to do something and ten years latter is it forbidden. So I take it with prudence and practice as it seems to me my students are learning best. In our books Spanish grammar is explained in French and my students are acostumbred to it. We cannot do alone different because when they change of teacher they are in difficulties.

Your students seem to be acostumbred to your way of teaching and they are learning well. It seems to be the way to do in Spain so don't change nothing, but I am not shoked by the practise of your collegue.

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:15 am

Flo wrote:

I learnt it from 0 to 5 years old practising without nobody to explain me rules. But it was different when I began English because I had French manners. The English grammar for French student is different from the English grammar for Spanish student: it explains what is different from their mother tongue. It is not exactly the same. You can see my English faults come from my mother tongue: I was not virgen/new when I began.

Pedagogy is also a question of fashion and since pedagogy exist there is nothing really new. In France they tell us to do something and ten years latter is it forbidden. So I take it with prudence and practice as it seems to me my student learn best. In our books Spanish grammar is explained in French and my students are acostumbred to it. We cannot do alone different because when they change of teacher they are in difficulties.

Your students seem to be acostumbred to your way of teaching and they are learning well. It seems to be the way to do in Spain so don't change nothing, but I am not shoked by the practise of your collegue.

Corrections and suggestions: I learnt it at the age of 0 to 5 years practising without having anybody to explain to me the rules. But it was different when I began English because I thought in French. The English grammar for a French student is different from the English grammar for a Spanish student: it explains what is different from their mother tongue. It is not exactly the same. You can see my English mistakes come from my mother tongue: I was not virgen/new when I began.

Pedagogy is also a question of fashion and since pedagogy has existed there is nothing really new. In France they tell us to do something and ten years later it is forbidden. So I take it with prudence and practice using what works best for my students. In our books Spanish grammar is explained in French and my students are accustomed to that. We cannot do anything different on our own because when they change teachers they have difficulties.

Your students seem to be accustomed to your way of teaching and they are learning well. It seems to be the way to do it in Spain so don't change anyhing, but I am not shocked by the practise of your colleague.

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:03 pm

Thank you for correcting.

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:57 pm

Last week, one of my Spanish teachers talked about this topic after having attended a foreign language teacher seminar some time ago. At the seminar, the teachers were told that the best way to teach a foreign language to adult (= post puberty) students is to use their first language, especially when explaining grammar.

Being a student, not a teacher, I definitely prefer monolingual lessons.

My two Spanish teachers conduct their classes bilingual. We also use bilingual course books. One of the teachers speaks Spanish most of the time. I appreciate that, because it really helps me to focus on the foreign language during the lesson and enables me to at least try to always answer in Spanish. We are not reprimanded for responding in German, but sometimes the teachers ask us to answer once again but in Spanish.

My English teacher conducts her classes almost monolingual and we use a monolingual course book. For my English is better than my Spanish, I have pretty much never problems of understanding in this course and I do not feel like answering in German at all. My English teacher is a miracle worker who makes students understand everything by using a wide range of body language, as well as acting and drawing on the blackboard instead of speaking their first language.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:49 am

Gabi wrote:

My two Spanish teachers conduct their classes bilingual.

My English teacher conducts her classes almost monolingual and we use a monolingual course book.

For my English is better than my Spanish, I have pretty much never problems of understanding in this course and I do not feel like answering in German at all.

Corrections and suggestions: My two Spanish teachers speak German in their classes.

My English teacher conducts her classes almost exclusively in English and we use a monolingual course book.

Since my English is better than my Spanish, I pretty much never have any problems with/in understanding in this course and I do not feel like answering in German at all.

Comment: I am totally convinced that using the student's first language in a second language class is wrong, totally wrong!!!! The students and the teacher have to know that, from day one, they must learn to communicate in the target language.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:15 am

Thank you very much for your corrections and suggestions, Myprofe. Sorry

Myprofe wrote:

Comment: I am totally convinced that using the student's first language in a second language class is wrong, totally wrong!!!! The students and the teacher have to know that, from day one, they must learn to communicate in the target language.

I absolutely agree with you.

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:55 pm

Hi, thank you for reminding me, MyProfe. Happy!

I think teaching in the language learned in the class is the ideal way for the students. Because by being done so evokes the students to study themselves possitively, doing some search in the grammar books or dictionary. It becomes much more impressive to remember or gives them more questions, and they will try to ask the teacher more in the language.

Hi, Flo, long time no see. What you explained about your case that you have been doing so from '70s is very wonderful!!
In Japan, they haven't done it yet in schools now. It's so difficult because the teachers are Japanese. To do so, they need to have some training at least for some years to observe or actually practice doing teaching in English-speaking country mimicking the real English-speaking teachers.
The government doesn't take such system yet in Japan. They are very slow and out of date.
I just experienced a little in Australian elementary schools, so I am thinking trying so in my private Juku school in a mean time. But actually it is difficult because I don't have any experience to have heard the English words instructed by the teachers in my school days. That's the problem. How much and how big the amount is we learned in that age!
But actually I think, for the students who are going to learn a language as a second language, teaching in the very language is highly important and fabulous, it might take a little bit longer time though, but it will be much more impressive.

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:14 am

Hi. I'm glad to be invited to talk about this topic.

First, I don't really understand what Flo said: "In France this was done among 70's and it was abandonned because it produced bad results." Does "this" mean teaching in the target language produced bad results?

According to my own experience, I am totally for teaching a second language in the mother language of the students. When I was a college student, some of my teachers taught in English and I had difficulty understanding what they were saying. Some of my teachers were Chinese and some of them were American. Actually, now as I think about it, I think it was easier to understand an American teacher because they tried to talk slowly and clearly. The American teachers also had clear facial expressions that had helped convey their meanings. Well, this was something that we Chinese usually had difficulty with.

Anyway, my English has improved a lot since I graduated 13 years ago. So imagine my English was not as good and my listening ability was bad when I was a freshman in college 17 years ago! It was very unproductive listening to a teacher speaking in English when I did not understand him very much.

Then take my French lessons for example. In the first few classes of my French course, my French teacher explained the dialog we were learning in French, which I did not understand at all! A few classes later, she gave up, saying that we seemed confused and sighing that she did not know what to do better. But I was quite relieved that finally she was going to explain in Chinese what we were learning. It was a BIG relief! Then the course seemed much easier. Now I think it was a waste of time to try to explain in French because none of us had learned French before.

Later I took a Japanese course and the teacher explained everything in Chinese, which was very helpful. She was Japanese but she explained everything in simple Chinese, which was good enough for me to understand her.

Previously I was teaching elementary school students English and it was not easy trying to speak to them in English because they would wonder what I was talking about. I admit that I don't have good and clear body language to help convey my meanings, so I think for me it was not a good idea to try to speak to them in English. If you have the patience, I guess it is possible to speak to them in English and make them understand you.

As for me, I'd prefer a teacher to speak in Chinese when teaching a foreign language. Now my English is good enough to understand daily English, so it's not a problem to listen to a teacher speak in English. But if I were to take a second foreign language, even French or Japanese that I had learned before, I'd still prefer to have the teacher explain everything in Chinese.

I'm still trying to improve my English listening ability, which is the worst of the four language skills of mine- speaking, writing, reading and listening. The way I do it is to play a short article over and over again throughout the day when I am doing something else. I have done this for half a year now and found my listening ability has improved a lot. I've also memorized those articles I listened to. I think this is a good way to learn another language because it is unconscious learning and it's something easy that students can do by themselves. I wish I had known this method much earlier, like when I just started my French or Japanese course. I can copy pronunciations and intonations quite well and this method could have helped me in a great deal.

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:19 am

Nobuko wrote:

Because by being done so evokes the students to study themselves positively, doing some search in the grammar books or dictionary.

Self Correction: I had to omit "by" in the first part of this sentence. I noticed something strange after posting. The part should be 'the subject'.

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:37 am

Gloria; I can understand what you said, because I myself is the result of such education (teaching a language in the native language). It is just good for reading and writing something (1), and it is good for only willing students or children with some higher level of understanding(2).

In the first case, you can read and write very well, but you might not be able to do well in listening or speaking if you don't do some special self training.

In the second case, normally in the language class, about 20% or a little more from the top, at most I can say about 50% of the students can follow the contents of the class, and the rest have already given up after learning for a year or so [at least in Japan].

But if you do the teaching in the target language, I mean from the earlier age or in the elementary school, they can just get all the four skills naturally with much interests if the teaching is practiced with well considered methods by the teachers with good knowledge of linguistic teaching methods and self strategies according to the level and the interests of the target students.

Then around the age of 12 or 13, they can start training of spelling correctly or memorize the spelling by being some tests.

This means until then, all the children or the students need not to be labelled with good level or bad so accurately. They don't have to give up themselves in learning the target language, and so it becomes a part of their body (knowledge). Learning a language should not be a hard study at least at first for the students. It's important for a language to be learned long and by many, many people, because it leads to understanding the world.

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:57 am

Hi, Nobuko. I think I understand what you were saying. Actually I think we have to talk about this topic in two aspects. One is for children and the other is for adults because children learn languages in a different way from adults.

According to what I have read and heard, children are very receptive to the sounds in their environment. They learn everything that surrounds them unconsciously, especially children from birth to six years old. After a certain age, they start to have the ability to "shut" their ears. However, before 12 years of age, children are all capable of learning a language well if given a suitable way and their interests are aroused. Their hearing is very acute and a lot of listening will sharpen their ability to differentiate all the sounds in a language. I haven't taught any children in English only so I can't say how well it will work. But I am sure any child can pick up the language quickly if given a lot of stimuli.

However, for an adult it's not the same case. We do not possess the same abilities as children, whose brains are still developing. For an adult like me, I'd prefer a teacher speaking in my native language if I am a beginner.

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:45 pm

Hello Everyone,

I am still here, although it has been a long time since I have posted. I hope you will forgive me - as the expression goes, "Life is what happens while you are making other plans." I planned to write, but life happened.

I am interested in MyProfe's opinion about only using the target language in the classroom. I think he is correct [i]for the type of students he is teaching: motivated adults. However, the teacher he overheard speaking Spanish to his students was teaching teenagers - and that is a different story.

Unless the students are highly motivated to perfect their skills, they become frustrated trying to understand grammar which could be explained quickly in their native language. In a class of students whose languages are not all the same, the teacher has no alternative but to explain in English. I think the important factor is the motivation of the students. In secondary schools, many are there to fulfill a requirement and really don't think they can master the language. They give up quickly. On the upper levels, however, I try to do all instruction in the target language because these are the more motivated students.

There are many disagreements about this, but I know almost no teachers who never use the first language at some point.

It is a very interesting discussion.

My best wishes to you all. I'll be back.

Helen

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:47 pm

I agree with the last sentence Helen mentioned above. It is very difficult not to use the native language. But I think it's better if you can go through without using your own tongue.

Gloria; I think it's opposite, in motivated adult class, I think they really want to be taught in the target language by a target-language-speaking teacher or a native teacher of the same level.

There are two things that I would like to express here.

First, imagine, I want to learn Chinese (Situation: I am a Japanese of over 55 and don't know Chinese except Nee How's pronunciation).
Then, I don't want to go to a Japanese teacher to learn it while I have a good Chinese teacher near here, especially the situation is in China.

Gloria, you look to have studied many languages so far and then look to have good memory, but as to me, just memorizing something is very hard, I have to connect to something else reasonable or imaginable to remember it later on.
Anyway, it looks so boring to learn Chinese in Japanese language. It looks just an enforced study. There is no findings by myself or questionings, because it is only a passive style. I like to use my imagination and I want to find anything strange or questions in learning and want to ask the teacher many things to build up my knowledge.
You know I am still young (?) but a little bit losing patience. I need stimulation.
If you can stimulate someone in your class, it works itself, he/she will study positively for themselves. This is the same as what I wanted to say in the first post.
[But I can really understand well what you said is correct in case you need to learn a language to use for your work and need to get it as soon as possible. It also can be called a 'motivation']

Secondly, if you teach the grammar in the style of CLT teaching method (Communicative Language Teaching), it can be taught very quickly with much better understandings.
The style is just the one you are learning from MyProfe, (I think), using the textbook like 'Headway' or so.

I'm not sure in China, but in Japan, for example 17 year-old students in high school have to learn one grammar like "He looked to have been a doctor until a few years before", they will take a whole time of the class or more to get it into them (but perhaps they will forget after two weeks though). Moreover they never use the expression in the class orally.

But if you learn it in the CLT class like MyProfe's or Flo's (I'm not sure), although the teacher shows some examples of the sentences on the board or in the textbook, he/she doesn't take a long time to explain it or practice it using a drill-book or else. Instead, the teacher lets the students use the expression immediately in a group or a pair in various ways. So the students have to try to understand the grammar right away to make some sentences similar to the example orally. As a result they won't forget it so soon, rather they will use it as soon as possible outside if the situation is in the target language country.
Voicing itself stimulates your brain and it makes your memory clear and strong, I think so from my experience and some infomation around me.

Sorry, too long.

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:48 am

Hi, Nobuko.

I am not totally against using the target language to teach. I think it's better to adjust the teaching method to meet the needs of the students. I don't speak for others. I was just speaking for myself.

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:10 am

If we can't teach in the target language then there is little chance that our students will ever become fluent.

If the students are there to pass exams then this is fine.

But if the goal is to master the language then use the target language from day one.

There's no place for the student's first language in a class where the goal is to reach fluency in a second language.

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:19 am

But if the goal is to master the language then use the target language from day one.

There's no place for the student's first language in a class where the goal is to reach fluency in a second language.

I don't understand your first sentences but nevertheless these two sentences bring me to ask you things :

Do you already had students who never heared a word of English in their life ? Beginners total, not beginners who had a few words beause English is difunded in every aspect of daily life. I have them in Spanish.

You can say them "Buenos días" and as they have a well common sence they understand and said "Buenos días" Luego sigues diciendo "Me llamo Fulano y tú ¿Cómo te llamas ?" and so on. And this is what I do.

But when you want them to do something as to close the door, or write down on their exercice book, or learn the lesson page 2, or stop fighting how do you manage for them to understand ?

Second : How do you pretend them to answear you if they only know 3 words of Spanish ? If they want to say (very common cases ):

- La puerta está abierta porque tenemos mucho calor y permite que nos venga un airecillo.
- No he entendido bien cómo se sabe si una palabra es femenina.
- No es culpa mía Fulano no para de darme golpes con su brazo y yo no puedo escribir tranquilo. El ha sido el primero en pegarme. No es justo que me diga a mí que pare.

Do you reprimend them every time they don't speak English ? How do you can comunicate with you students ?

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:54 pm

flo wrote:

Do you already had students who never heared a word of English in their lives ? Beginners total, not beginners who had a few words beause English is difunded in every aspect of daily life. I have them in Spanish.

You can say them "Buenos días" and as they have a well common sence they understand and said "Buenos días" Luego sigues diciendo "Me llamo Fulano y tú ¿Cómo te llamas ?" and so on. And this is what I do.

But when you want them to do something as to close the door, or write down on their exercice book, or learn the lesson page 2, or stop fighting how do you manage for them to understand ?

Second : How do you pretend them to answear you if they only know 3 words of Spanish ? If they want to say (very common cases ):

- La puerta está abierta porque tenemos mucho calor y permite que nos venga un airecillo.
- No he entendido bien cómo se sabe si una palabra es femenina.
- No es culpa mía Fulano no para de darme golpes con su brazo y yo no puedo escribir tranquilo. El ha sido el primero en pegarme. No es justo que me diga a mí que pare.

Do you reprimend them every time they don't speak English ? How do you can comunicate with you students ?

Corrections and suggestions: Have you ever had students who never heard a word of English in their lives ? Total beginners, not beginners who knew a few words because English is present in every aspect of daily life. I have them in Spanish.

You can say to them "Buenos días" and since they use their common sense they understand and say "Buenos días" Luego sigues diciendo "Me llamo Fulano y tú ¿Cómo te llamas ?" and so on. And this is what I do.

But when you want them to do something such as close the door, or write something down in their exercise book, or learn the lesson on page 2, or stop fighting how do you manage to get them to understand ?

Second : How do you expect them to answer you if they only know 3 words in Spanish ? If they want to say (very common things ):

- La puerta está abierta porque tenemos mucho calor y permite que nos venga un airecillo.
- No he entendido bien cómo se sabe si una palabra es femenina.
- No es culpa mía Fulano no para de darme golpes con su brazo y yo no puedo escribir tranquilo. El ha sido el primero en pegarme. No es justo que me diga a mí que pare.

Do you reprimand them every time they don't speak English ? How do you communicate with your students ?

Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:46 pm

Myprofe wrote:

If the students are there to pass exams then this is fine.

Myprofe, would you please be so kind as to explain? I am not sure if I get you right. Are you saying that it is okay to teach students in their native language instead of in the target language if their aim is to pass exams?

Myprofe wrote:

I try to immerse my students in a world of English for the duration of each class.

Let's imagine you don't teach Spanish people in Spain but in the United States of America. So your students are living in a world of English for a couple of months. You may be the only person available who can speak and understand their native language. Would you nevertheless teach them in English only or would you speak Spanish every now and then to give them the opportunity to relax a bit from their strenuous every day life in your country?

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:29 am

Thank you very much for your corrections Myprofe.

But I feel a little frustrated because you didn't anwear the questions... I love to dialog on the forum, and on that point of pedagogy, especially with you because you teach a different way from me and sometimes I stole you an idea... My colleagues use to do exactly the same than me because they are told exactly the same (programs, new ideas for teaching, inspectors's instructions) but you are different and bring new point of view.

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:15 pm

Gabi wrote:

Are you saying that it is okay to teach students in their native language instead of in the target language if their aim is to pass exams?

Yes, if the objective is only to pass an exam then it doesn't matter how you conduct the class.

Gabi wrote:

Let's imagine you don't teach Spanish people in Spain but in the United States of America. So your students are living in a world of English for a couple of months. You may be the only person available who can speak and understand their native language. Would you nevertheless teach them in English only or would you speak Spanish every now and then to give them the opportunity to relax a bit from their strenuous every day life in your country?

Maybe in that case I would be more flexible.

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:19 pm

Gabi wrote:

My English teacher is a miracle worker who makes students understand everything by using a wide range of body language, as well as acting and drawing on the blackboard instead of speaking their first language.

Good for her!!!!

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:28 pm

Flo wrote:

But when you want them to do something like close the door, or write something down in their exercise books, or learn the lesson on page 2, or stop fighting, how do you manage to get them to understand ?

Use your imagination. Use gestures and body language. Do it yourself and then tell them to do it.

Flo wrote:

Do you reprimand them every time they don't speak English ?

I ignore them when they speak in Spanish.

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:32 pm

There have been a lot of references to grammar rules in this topic. Why do we have to teach grammar? We learned our first language without knowing anything about grammar. Wouldn't it be more interesting to let the students discover the grammar on their own?

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:51 pm

Flo wrote:

Have you ever had students who never heard a word of English in their lives?

A few years ago I gave class to a five year old girl who, at the time, could only tell me the names of a few colors, numbers and objects. From day one, I spoke to her only in English. She never said a word in Spanish. And when she didn't know what to say or what I wanted her to do she would remain silent, waiting for me to give her more information. We "played" with picture cards and from one week to the next she would remember everything she had learned. It was amazing.

Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:11 pm

Flo wrote:

But I feel a little frustrated because you didn't anwear the questions... I love to dialog on the forum, and on that point of pedagogy, especially with you because you teach a different way from me and sometimes I stole you an idea... My colleagues use to do exactly the same than me because they are told exactly the same (programs, new ideas for teaching, inspectors's instructions) but you are different and bring new point of view.

Corrections and suggestions: But I feel a little frustrated because you didn't answer the questions... I love to dialog on the forum, and on that point of pedagogy, especially with you because you teach a different way from me and sometimes I steal an idea from you... My colleagues always do exactly the same as me because they are told exactly the same (programs, new ideas for teaching, inspectors's instructions) but you are different and bring a new point of view.

Comment: First, I correct the posts. And later, when I have time, I respond.

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:39 pm

Myprofe wrote:

There have been a lot of references to grammar rules in this topic. Why do we have to teach grammar? We learned our first language without knowing anything about grammar. Wouldn't it be more interesting to let the students discover the grammar on their own?

I think grammar is very important especially to learn foreign language.

The reason why we do not need to know the grammar of our own language is that you are always listening to the language around you from when you were a baby. The more grammatically correctly you have listened to it, the more correctly you can speak it. I mean it depends on your parents’ speech, correct or not so much. And it also depends on the amount of your readings.

However, when you start learning a foreign language around 12, your knowledge and recognition of your own language is almost formed firmly. So after learning the foreign language for a while (some months), or from the first, if you learn the grammar comparing it to your own, it is very easy to understand how the sentences are made. It is like understanding of mathematics. There are many formulae.
(It, teaching grammar, is fast to get to the goal. If you let your students find the rules by themselves, it is OK in a meaning, but it takes very long time and in the middle, they will give up or lose their way to understand the whole, which is the phenomenon of the students in junior and high schools in Japan, 80 % or more of them are losing their ways.)

For example, I’m sorry to use it, but like the sentences of above “ Do you already had students who never heard a word of English in their lives ? “ is a little difficult to understand to get the contexts, but the correction of MyProfe, “Have you ever had students who never heard a word of English in their lives ? “ is easy to understand, as I can see the context was ‘experience’ of the usage of ‘have + P.P.’.

Or the example of “ If the students are there to pass exams then this is fine. “ is also the grammar point (, most of his corrections are grammatical). Although she was able to understand it, but we need to see the “to” in “to pass “ is ‘adverb’, not ‘noun’ or adjective’ usages.

['Adverb' modifies 'verb' (or adjectives or other adverbs), 'adjective' modifies only 'nouns'. 'Noun' can be a 'Subject' and 'Object' and 'Complement'. 'Noun' and 'adjective' can be 'Complement' in S V C and S V O C sentences.]

If you don’t know the usage of grammar, you cannot make any sentences in English. You know, I have lived in Japan for more than 50 years (and no one speak English around me) and only for 3 years in Australia. If you can understand my English, I owe it to the grammar, of course. My mom was real Japanese. She spoke very good Japanese and often read books to me when I was a child. ?

One-eyed

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:22 pm

Sorry for my very bad English Nobuko, (I participate to improve my Spanish but I have to write English sometimes for everybody to understand) but nevertheless I agree with all what you said in this post. I am a teacher of Spanish and I can see it both learning and teaching.

The comparation with mathematic is true. In France, in the school for 15 to 20 years, the pupils are in different series linguistic, mathematic.... and mathematic students grasp more rapidly grammar than linguistic one who learn more as Myprofe said. I think there are so huge range of intelligence or psycology (including teachers and students) that it is the reason why we can teach different styles and said "I get the best results like that" while another different teacher before another different pupil can say just the contrary.

I think also that we have not just maternal lenguage in mind when we learn another tongue, it is much more because we think with our language and finally understand the world around us as that languaje describe or structure it.

Your exemple with adjective, and adverb is never told to French students because who also have it in our language it is is one of those thing so evident for us... I know your lengage Japanese is a isolant lenguage, but I really can't imagine what it is. The same with the tones in Chinese ; I know teorically but I am not able to hear them. My English fault make my sentence was difficult for you to understand, but not for a French because it is a calque of it. (calque is traduction word to word and you do it without notice it) Perhaps that why the best manner to teach is grammar + practise, to reach every student, including those who have difficulties with theory. Myprofe's problem is different because he said he has students from several countries and what point of grammar must he teach ???